Posts by City Fan

Neanderthal Man did not become extinct. Anyone who has been on a night out in Manchester can see dozens of these creatures walking the streets at night.

6

Remembering Muslim Atrocities / USPS honouring Islam

by Hamas in

jw
friends

on minimus post about venting your anger, i read this post by spunkychick:

remember the muslim bombing of panam flight 103!

remember the muslim bombing of the world trade center in 1993!

To be honest Hamas, I'm sick of having to be tolerant of a religion which itself is very intolerant. There are 2 huge mosques being built in my home town. If I wanted to live in a muslim state I'd move to Pakistan!

But you're right in a way. I'm also sick of Bush and his calls for a 'crusade' and prayers to god for the US and allied troops. In fact I'm sick of any religion that has its origin in the backward, barbaric cultic gods of Arabian nomadic tribesmen.

Both sides are guilty of atrocities, and religion with its cultural differences is to blame.

117

Polytheism - Jehovah has same status as other gods

by Sirona in

who here is polytheistic?

is jehovah just another god?

is he on a par with osiris / pan / cernunnos / whoever?.

City Fan

The LXX Septaguint and Dead Sea Scrolls versions of Deutoronomy 32 7-9 translate this phrase "the sons of God" not "the children of Israel". That is why the Revised Standard Version translates this phrase "the sons of God".

By changing "the sons of God" to "the children of Israel" the Masoretic text, on which the King James version is based, was trying to eliminate the reference to the divine council.

Paul Hanson of Harvard University writes " This verse no doubt preserves early Israel's view of her place within the family of nations. The high god "Elyon" originally apportioned the nations to the members of the divine assembly. . . . Israel was allotted to Yahweh"

As the RSV puts it, Israel was Yahweh's "allotted inheritance," given (or "allotted") to Him by His Father, El.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint prove that in the original Hebrew of Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Yahweh was portrayed as a member of the divine council under El. Therefore, those who subsequently tampered with the Hebrew text were probably Yahweh-only editors who wanted to erase the original distinction between El and Yahweh and to depict Yahweh as the one and only God.

Archaeology has also shown that worship of Asherah, the mother goddess and consort of Yahweh was an integral part of life in the divided monarchy. Temple models have been found dated to the 10th century BC in Taanach depicting the goddess Asherah. And this was from the time of the supposed reign of Solomon and the Jerusalem temple.

17

who gave isreal to Jehovah?

by peacefulpete in

i thought this was discssed before but i couldn't find it, so forgive if this is repetitious.

at deuteronomy 32:8-9, part of the "song of moses" the text says the "most high" divvied up the nations to the gods he gave judah to yhwh/jehovah as his "allotment".

this "song" is view for textural and language reasons to be one of the oldest portions of the bible, an ancient song that was incorporated into the narrative and ascribed to the moses character.

City Fan

Pete, I've just ordered Cross's book. Maybe one day I'll order something that will be an 'easy read'!

By the way, I've always found your posts to be concise and intelligent. Keep up the good work.

17

who gave isreal to Jehovah?

by peacefulpete in

i thought this was discssed before but i couldn't find it, so forgive if this is repetitious.

at deuteronomy 32:8-9, part of the "song of moses" the text says the "most high" divvied up the nations to the gods he gave judah to yhwh/jehovah as his "allotment".

this "song" is view for textural and language reasons to be one of the oldest portions of the bible, an ancient song that was incorporated into the narrative and ascribed to the moses character.

City Fan

Excellent post Thi Chi - I especially like the last quote.

Pete - You're right about having to piece together this kind of information. Most of my books are compilation type books. I could recommend one book 'The Ancient Gods' by E.O.James but maybe only for insomnia!

Much of the development of ancient deities seems to be linked to linguistics. The god 'Ea' of the Babylonians, the 'Lord of the Watery Deep' is not a million miles away linguistically from the Ugaritic god Yaw (the Sea). A Ugaritic text shows the supreme god El saying "The name of my son is Yaw". (compare Deut 32:8). In Ugaritic myths Baal and Yaw were brothers who fought to become 'Lord of the earth'. It is interesting to note that in the bible Abram comes from 'Ur' where the god Ea would be worshipped along with other gods.

Yahweh could also have been a minor deity in Phoenicia long before the Hebrews settled in Cannan. Cunieform tablets discovered at Taanach dated to around 2500 BCE contain the name Ahi-yahu and the abbreviation 'Yo' appears on jars at a later date in Palestine and in the form 'yw' at Ugarit. These liguistic arguments give the origins of the name Yahweh in Ugarit and Phoenicia rather then the deserts of southern Palestine. Again if the name yahweh has its roots in Ugarit (Syria) then this would tie in with Israelite legends about them once being Aramean (Deut 26:5).

Other similarities exist between the Ugaritic Yaw and the Hebrew Yahweh. Yaw's wife was Ashtoreth whereas Yahweh's wife was Asherah. On a wall at Mizpeh, north of Jerusalem, temples to Asherah and Yahweh stood side by side from the 9th century until the city was destroyed. Other cultic remains found at Taanach from the 10th century BC at the Solomonic temple are statues of the Goddess Asherah. If this artifact is indeed from the time of Solomon then it shows that Judah and Israel were far from monotheistic. Shrines to the Goddess Asherah were rife in Israel up until the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon.

El was always the supreme Cannanite deity and each nation had its own god, a son of El. But eventually the writers and compilers of the bible managed to merge Yahweh and El into the one god 'Yahweh-Elohim'.

44

The Bible is a very mean spirited book.

by libra_spirit in

i remember at one point in my life believing that the new testament taught love as the greatest command.

for the last week i have been rereading the new testament.

mathew, and revelation so far.

City Fan

Faroan - great websites, especially the quiz site.

17

who gave isreal to Jehovah?

by peacefulpete in

i thought this was discssed before but i couldn't find it, so forgive if this is repetitious.

at deuteronomy 32:8-9, part of the "song of moses" the text says the "most high" divvied up the nations to the gods he gave judah to yhwh/jehovah as his "allotment".

this "song" is view for textural and language reasons to be one of the oldest portions of the bible, an ancient song that was incorporated into the narrative and ascribed to the moses character.

City Fan

This verse actually shows that the gods El and Yahweh were two different gods. Deut 32:7-9 shows El Elyon as the head of a pantheon of gods who gives each one of his divine sons a people to govern Yahweh is portrayed as one of the 'sons of Elyon'.

Psalms 82 has El taking his place in the divine council judging in the midst of the gods. He then 'fires' his sons and makes them mortal as all the nations belong to him. Yahweh would be one of these sons.

Yahweh was a warrior god (Yahweh Saboath) from the deserts south of Palestine (Sier/Edom/Paran compare Deut 33:2). El was a mesopotamian diety and came to Israel through Aram. Jacob was called a 'wandering Aramean' Deut 26:5.

Canaanite and Aramaic mythology both had El as the head of the pantheon who gave nations to his various sons. This makes Baal and Yahweh brothers.

Yahweh and El only became the same god after centuries of political and religious alliances.

42

Historical Problems in Bible

by IronGland in

historical problems, inconsistencies, and contradictions comprise a significant part of the bible: .

(1) "thirty and two years old was he (jehoram--ed.

) when he began to reign, and he reigned in jerusalem 8 years, and departed without being desired.

City Fan

Well I've edited that post 5 times now and it still won't include everything I typed - oh well you get the drift.

I'm off to the pub!!

42

Historical Problems in Bible

by IronGland in

historical problems, inconsistencies, and contradictions comprise a significant part of the bible: .

(1) "thirty and two years old was he (jehoram--ed.

) when he began to reign, and he reigned in jerusalem 8 years, and departed without being desired.

City Fan

I have to agree with Abaddon here. If the bible was inspired then it would also be accurate. But it was the obvious myths and legends in the bible that started my slow fade from the jw’s.

The Kingdom built by David and Solomon, the military strength and vast wealth are all obviously exaggerated. For all their reported wealth and power, neither David or Solomon are mentioned in any known Egyptian or Mesopotamian text. Archaeology instead suggests that David was little more than an Iron Age chieftain.

Archaeologist W.G. Dever talking about the population size for the biblical ‘United Monarchy’ states that ca. 100 thousand is not too high a figure for all of

But the bibles exaggerated numbers start much earlier than this. The size of the army commanded by Joshua for the invasion of the promised land is given as 601,730 (Numbers 26:51). So according to the bible at this time the estimated size of the Israelite nation was about 5 million people. But Deutoronomy 7:1 lists seven nations that are greater and mightier than the Israelites. So according to the bible the estimated population size for Palestine about the 13 th century BC was about 30 – 40 million. That’s a much greater population density than the most densely populated parts of modern !

But again does archaeology agree with this? Almost 400 Amarna tablets have been found that detail letters sent to in the 13 th century BC by rulers of city-states in including , Shechem, , Hazor and . The Amarna letters show that was an Egyptian province with garrisons stationed at key sites throughout the country. The powerful Canaanite enemies of the book of Joshua were in fact extremely weak. The small scale of this society is shown by an Amarna letter sent by the king of to Pharoah to supply 50 men to protect the land. Another letter sent by the king of requests 100 soldiers to guard the city from an attack by neighbouring Shechem.

The numbers for the Exodus from also do not add up. The Israelites left with over 600,000 armed men. (Exodus ; ; Numbers 1:1-3,45-46). Again this gives a conservative estimate for the size of the Israelite nation as 4-5 million. The estimated size of the population in during the was only about 4 million!

Only 70 people had entered with Joseph 430 years previously (Exodus 1:5; ). This gives a population growth rate of approx. 2.6% for the Israelites whilst in . This was at a time when because of death rates through disease and famine Egypt had a population growth rate of less than 0.1%, and a life expectancy of about 22 years.

As I’ve stated before, the size of the armies recorded in the bible of both and would have made them a greater power than , , or any other so-called ‘world power’.